As a result, it became necessary to decide the best way to get the Thatcher Family what is rightfully theirs. Over the years, we can all agree that there has been little to no order as to how items were dispersed to family members. For example, Mark needed a hunting rifle 15+ years ago, so he asked Uncle Howard if he could borrow one from the safe. Uncle Howard was kind enough to get one for him, and Mark procrastinated getting it back after the hunting season. Once it was known that no one could open the safe, the 25-06 never made it back to where it belonged. Mark has felt guilty all these years and now feels relieved that there is a way to get this off his conscience. We also have a 30-06. The stock looks like Grandpa Thatcher carved it. Sid is 90% sure that he purchased it from Grandpa Thatcher more then 30 years ago, but he can not remember for sure; therefore we are going to put it back into the pool of assets that the ORT family is entitled to.
There may be other items in a similar situation that people have, and our goal is to put everything out in the daylight and get the 5 children the portion of assets they deserve.
so....... What do we do??? We are going to have a Family Only Auction!!
If the 5 children want to buy any of the items they have a huge advantage because they will get a check for their portion of the items sold, and a 20% discount on anything they buy refunded back to them when they pay for their items.
An auction is probably the most equitable way to take care of the 5 children. The differing and nebulous values on all the items (except for silver and gold), make it almost impossible to divide the different items up in a fair way. There are a lot of different ways to dispose of the items, but the goal is fairness and sunshine on the process. A FAMILY ONLY auction where the benefits go directly to the 5 children would achieve the goal and be fair to everyone.
We would like to have the FAMILY ONLY Auction over the 4th of July weekend. We will auction off 100% of the items in the safe PLUS any other items that anyone may have been watching over for all these years. All the proceeds from the FAMILY ONLY Auction will be divided evenly 5 ways between Howard, Bob, Steve, Sid and Aurelia. The items must be paid for immediately following the auction, and a check written to each of the Orson Thatcher children.
We would like to have the FAMILY ONLY Auction over the 4th of July weekend. We will auction off 100% of the items in the safe PLUS any other items that anyone may have been watching over for all these years. All the proceeds from the FAMILY ONLY Auction will be divided evenly 5 ways between Howard, Bob, Steve, Sid and Aurelia. The items must be paid for immediately following the auction, and a check written to each of the Orson Thatcher children.
Does anyone know of an auctioneer for the actual event? We are going to try and get Dean Parker...
We are working on getting pictures and descriptions of all the items. We will put them up on the blog shortly.
Please e-mail pictures and/or descriptions of items that would be appropriate to get into the family auction to orsonrthatcher@gmail.com. The website will be updated with the information.
We are working on getting pictures and descriptions of all the items. We will put them up on the blog shortly.
Please e-mail pictures and/or descriptions of items that would be appropriate to get into the family auction to orsonrthatcher@gmail.com. The website will be updated with the information.
I think that a FAMILY ONLY auction is a BAD idea. Some of us may be in a situation were we can spend and puchurase family heirlooms, But my guess is that more of us are not in a financial situation to be spending at all.
ReplyDeleteThings should be divided among the siblings and hand down to family to family or if they want or need the money sell it on Ebay and divide the money. I really feel like the Grandchildren should not be involved at all.
I hope in posting this I don't cause hard feelings with anyone, that's the last thing I want. But I just feel like I need say something.
ReplyDeleteIs an auction really the way to do this? I just think this might cause some bad feelings. What if there are some that cannot afford to bid on one of these family heirlooms? What about those that cannot be there on the 4th of July?
I just think it might be better to let each of Orson's children have 2 of the guns and let it be decided in each family what will happen to them. Maybe then the last two guns could go up for auction.
When I read this I got a knot in my stomach; and my head tells me it doesn't really matter but my heart longs for one of grandpa's guns. And I don't think I could compete with some.
Since this was opened up to grandchildren I hope it's okay for me to put my 2 cents in.
If this does or even doesn't happen, I think there should be some target practice going on. For our 19th wedding anniversary Jonny gave me a 20 gage shot gun and I need some of you sharp shooters to teach me how to use it! :)
Stacey T. Kelly
I totally agree with you, Steph and Stacey. I think this method of dispersing the items will only lead to bad feelings and guarantee that the wealthy members of the family will get all of these heirlooms. It would be far better to bring in an independent appraiser to value the items then divide them into equal lots that the children will draw lots on. Then if the brothers and sister want to trade or sell the items from their lot, that will be their decision. Otherwise, it would not be fair and equitable.
ReplyDeleteNancy Thatcher
(Posted on behalf Jan)
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nancy and her solution. I am totally against having an auction.
Janis Thatcher
Thank you for creating this blog and letting us know about the safe and its contents.
ReplyDeleteI hope I don't cause any bad feelings. I love my family so much, and I really appreciate what you are trying to do, but I really don't support the auction idea.
I think the better course of action would be an independent appraisal done of each of the items and then divide them into lots for each of the 5 children. Then if people want to wheel and deal, then so be it.
Also is there any way to get a list of what was in the safe?
Again, I really appreciate the efforts you have made, but I really feel like an auction is not an equitable way of dividing these assets.
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ReplyDeleteUnfortunately no matter what is done someone is not going to like it. If you want to just divide up the guns between the Brothers and Aurelia who decides what goes to whom? I see way more hurt feelings that way then with the auction.
ReplyDeleteAs for not being able to afford to purchase something you have to realize that there are only 15 or 20 things in the safe and about 90 people wanting something to remember Grandma and Grandpa so the chances of you ending up with something from the safe is slim to none anyway.
I like the idea of an auction but in the end the decision is up to Aurelia and the Brothers I will support whatever they decide to do. Just remember the safe and it's contents are just things don't let whatever ends up happening hurt your feelings because the most important thing is family.
Lets all get together on the 4th enjoy each other's company remember Grandma and Grandpa and don't worry about who gets what.
Thatchers Rock!
PS Staggerwing3 is Jay.
ReplyDeleteObviously the best way for assets to be distributed, is if there was a will or trust document that spells out what the intention for all the assets 23 year ago. I know of no such document.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of a family auction was brought on to shed light and do right by everyone. Take everything out of the shadows like it has been in the past. There is no perfect way to divide assets. If Grandpa and Grandma had a will and it was executed in accordance with Grandpa and Grandma’s wishes (the most accurate way), I am sure that when it was read someone would leave and have hurt feeling like they were short changed. This has been true since the beginning of time. That brings us to coming up with a format that will cover 4 main points.
1. Make sure that it is equitable and fair to the family
2. Making sure that the Heirlooms are preserved in the family.
3. Make sure that it is out in the open for all to see .
4. Have an excuse to get together and enjoy each other.
First, this must be fair and equitable.
If you auction something off to a family member, that money can be divided up 5 ways by an exact amount. It does not get much more equal then that. If any family member thinks that the item is going for too cheap, they can bid on it to purchase it themselves. What if some of the 5 ORT family members just want the money from the majority of the items, Is there something wrong with that? Wouldn’t we want the items to end up in families hands vs an unknown ebay bidders?
If 5 pools of assets, or everyone taking a turn to pick something, is set up as a method of distribution, then there WILL be items that the ORT brothers and sisters do not want, that they will end up with. Wouldn’t it be much better if those items were put in a situation where instead of an ORT bro or sis not wanting it, to where they actually get paid for it AND the person who purchased it from that auction actually wanted it. The moment a child or grandchild buys the item, it will become a heirloom to the person who purchased it.
Lets say some expert comes in and makes 5 separate pools of assets. In that one appraisers opinion, they are equal, almost certainly 3 of the 5 people will want the same pool, so they draw straws to see who is lucky enough to win the most desirable pool of assets. That means that at least 3 of the 5 people left unhappy and did not get what they want. BTW they did not leave with any money either.
The members who looses the drawing for the pool assets now go home with stuff they do not want. So what do they do then? They put the stuff that they do not want up on eBay to sell to strangers, it will sell for less then they would have got if family who may have a specific memory with Grandpa Thatcher had a chance to buy it.
Dividing it up in pools or taking turns, ends up being very unfair to everybody.
Unfortunately there is no way to make sure that no ones feelings are hurt. It should help out a lot to think that 1 week ago, before we opened the safe, no one had any idea that they would be getting anything and now each ORT child could walk away with a couple thousand dollars or a lot of items. The key to this process is that it is their choice. Knowing Grandpa Thatcher and how he felt about personal liberty and choice, I think he might like that aspect of it.
But Jay is right, it is for the Brothers and Aurelia to decide.
Keeping a dialog open is a wonderful thing and I'm glad we have this medium to all be in touch and talk about this. And I totally agree, ultimately it's the decision of the 5, not us grand kids. But it is important that they decide TOGETHER the best method of distribution.
ReplyDeleteIn that spirit of open communication, we should be as sensitive as possible to the feelings of others. As for me, I'm not a gun user, so if Stacey really wants a gun, I'm more than happy for her to have one. I can't speak for anyone else, that's just me. It's not necessary for me to have one.
Most importantly the items should go to the 5 living children, then if they wish to distribute/sell to their children, or to trade/sell to other family members, then so be it. But they will have the ultimate say in what happens to their pile. If there are things in a person's lot that they don't want, and others do want, then they can sell that item. I don't necessarily agree with ebay. I think we should keep the items in the family.
Well, first of all, the brothers and Aurelia need to know what was in the safe. It is pretty presumptuous of you to say that they won't want something when they don't know what is there. I'm not worried about getting anything myself. I just don't want my father to get screwed out of items that actually mean something to him and to the rest of us. For most of us, the monetary value is insignificant next to the sentimental value of the items. When my grandpa Talbot died, he didn't have a will either, but the children had enough respect for each other to divide the items equitably into collections and then to draw lots. There were no hard feelings and each branch of the family had some mementos even if there was not an item for each grandchild to have. Everyone knew who had what and that they were going to be taken care of.
ReplyDeleteBefore this goes any further, the brothers and sister need to get together and get an inventory of what was in the safe. Then they need to decide what happens to these items. I personally think it is silly for them to buy items that grandma and grandpa would have just divided among them. I appreciate that the existence of these items was made known, but it is NOT one person's or one part of the family's decision to make concerning the fate of these items.
Nancy
The more I think about the auction the more I like the idea and the more I think Grandpa would like the idea. He was truly a believer in a free market.
ReplyDeleteWhen I say if a brother or sister wants an item they just need to bid on it until they win sounds terrible. You have to buy your inheritance that would just suck. But that is not really what is happening. The brother or sister who wins the item doesn't pay anything there share of the pot just goes down compared to the other siblings. Best of all the value of the item was set by the entire family because everyone had a chance to bid what they thought it was worth. For the siblings it becomes a completely fair way to divide the inheritance.
Now for all of us cousins it is a different story we are all in different financial situations and some of us can afford more then others. I don't see any way around that Life is what it is and its not going to change.
If they do decide to have the auction lets all get together have a big party make it a big deal and have it be something we can all remember for the next 25 years.
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ReplyDeleteLOL! I love the Thatcher-banter. I'm going to leave this to the grown-ups because obviously none of the grandchildren (myself included) have reached that level of maturity.
ReplyDeleteIf the majority of the five (Howard, Sid, Bob, Aurelia, and Steve) vote to have an auction then great! If the majority wants to divide it up into equal lots and then draw for the pile they get then wonderful.
There is way too much chatter from the peanut gallery. Let stop talking because all it does is prove that we are asses.
It just sounds like the grandkids are really getting bent out of shape about this whole thing. If the grandkids really want something and don't have the money then talk to your parents. Tell them what to buy that you all may like as a family.
ReplyDeleteAs well as I knew grandpa he really would enjoy us getting together and learning about all these guns and his interests and loves. And having an auction would just be a lot of fun. Mark spent alot of time with grandpa Thatcher and I remember someone making the comment that it was hard for us grandchildren to talk to him. Marks response was that it was easy, as long as you are willing to ask him about the constitution, freedom the second amendment and guns. Here we all are sitting around talking about those things..... :).
And to the many of you think that a few people are going to end up with everything, that is just stupid... Don't worry about it, it doesn't sound like the ORT 5 are.
A few weeks ago everyone thought that the safe was empty, just be glad that we can come together as family and learn about grandpa. Memories last a lot longer than something that is already falling apart..
My point being proved.
ReplyDeleteI had a great relationship with Grandpa and especially with Grandma. I was never afraid to talk to either and frequently sat in his rocking chair (that was left out to rot) with him.
Lets not assume anything about others motives or their relationships with our grandparents.
Sorry Paul, you feel one way and that is valid but you don't get to decide. Nor do any of us grandchildren. Leave this to the five siblings.
In the interest of remembering our grandparents, let us figure out how to correctly spell grandma's name. Emilie. Her name has been frequently misspelled by the family but in the history book, there is a photograph of her actual signature. It is spelled Emilie- NOT Emelie. It is the German feminine of Emil.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in much of the histories written about grandma it has been spelled Emelie. Did grandma use both spellings? I was not aware of this and my father did not seem to think so. Does anyone know what is up with this? I know I have to look at the spelling of Bollschweiler and Fuhriman, when I spell them. Let's make this right!
Fuhriman, Walter U., From the Alps to the Rockies One of a Family: The History and Descendants of Jacob Fuhriman (Providence, Utah: Keith W. Watkins and Sons, Inc. 1987), 387 and 444.
I called Howard, Bob, Steve and Aurelia and told them about all this before this was put on a website. All of them agreed to a family auction. I wish there were a “perfect” way to do all this, but I don’t think that there is one out there.
ReplyDeleteWe are working on getting all the pictures up on the net right now. I have them all taken, but descriptions are a little difficult to come up with. Obviously we do not want anybody to “get screwed” out of anything. We have been and will be 100% transparent in this process. That is the point of all this. If I wanted to do anything less then honest, I am certain that no one would even know that the safe was opened.
As I have already said 100% of all the items in the safe will be available to the family. Not only will the items in the safe be available for the family, but I have taken two other items that were not in the safe (one of which I probably purchased from Dad many years ago) and made that available to the family. The intent was to bring the family together, not pull us apart.
Lets try and keep this from becoming a bitchfest and instead share great memories that we had with Grandpa and Grandma.
Sid, Bob is coming this week and we discussed it to some extent, but we would like to have a little bit more discussion on it. With the advantage of having some knowledge of the items involved and some access to them, I think we could get a better feeling for all of this. I believe that Steve and Aurelia would like to be involved in this discussion too.
ReplyDeleteHoward
I think that we ought to sell the items on eBay, take the earnings, and donate them to the "Obama 2012 re-election " campaign. Just a thought. (This lame joke brought to you by Rob Thatcher).
ReplyDeleteIf we could get someone that is all knowing and has the ability to look into everyone’s heart and mind and then devise a plan that way, this would be simple. But the only person I know that can do that just gave his job as a community organizer and is busy making America look like the South Side of Chicago.
ReplyDeletePlease leave Obama out of this.. He promised me a new house and car..
ReplyDeleteAnd I can't wait until our hospitals are like the D.M.V.
The words tact, empathy and sensitivity mean nothing to you people, do they? Oh wait, they are liberal code words. I remember.
ReplyDeleteI am hoping that majority can rule in this. I just called my Mom to make sure she knows about this auction. She is most definitely not okay with this method as a whole. It may be that she hasn't had a chance to be in on the decision and may not fully understand all that is entailed. The call Sid made to her, she had a hard time understanding because of the connection. Please Uncle Howard, Sid, Bob, Steve, and Mom get together the 5 (ALL 5) of you and make the decision together. It isn't our (the grandchildren’s) decision but all of yours. There is no law that puts a time limit on this decision, so if you can't get together before the 4th then you can always postpone.
ReplyDeleteNow my opinion (just what we need, another opinionated Thatcher, LOL)...I want to state that money or no money I would take care of and cherish any of those items. Just because some are less fortunate when it comes to money that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have an equal chance to a priceless family heirloom, and having money doesn’t make one more entitled. I personally agree with Nancy, that having the items appraised and then divided between the 5 siblings would be the only fair way of doing things. Once divided if any want to trade then that can be left up to them as some items may hold more sentimental value. Who knows, maybe the sibling could even do it without an appraiser, since I doubt any of them really care about the monetary value of these items. I would also like to say that if anyone would consider selling to ANYONE outside of the family(Orson Thatcher Family)...Shame on you! Although I really doubt that there is any one that would do such a thing :0). Then there is the matter of the 4th of July, by raise of hands who can actually be there? That is one of the biggest and busiest holidays of the year. I had this day booked out months ago.
I would love any reason to get together as a family and will do my best in my crazy schedule to be there. If the auction is held then we should do it on a day that most people are able to attend (I’m sure all families want to be included). If the auction is canceled, I would still love to get together to see all of the items from the safe before they are separated. We could even make a fun memory making event of it. If we changed the date to Sunday the 5th instead then maybe all family that is up visiting should hopefully still be in town and more could possibly come that are local. Of course there is the Sabbath to consider and we should plan accordingly. Just one more thing… Will people posting messages please leave your name so we can know who is speaking (MnS and Staggerwing3), all of our opinions should matter and it would be nice to know what opinion belongs to whom :0). Thanks All!
Holly
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ReplyDeleteHey Paul I have been to the DMV a few times in the last few months and believe me the wait times are way less then the ER way way less and they are nicer. Not a good analogy if your really against socialized medicine
ReplyDeleteJay
Speaking of Socialized medicine, Jeff(my hunny) was reading in an Optometry article about vision being lost in Canada because people are not able to get in to the Optometrist in a quick fashion. They are trying to pass legislation that Optometrists have to see all new patients by 26 weeks. Did you get that , 26 WEEKS! That is 6 months! I would hate to know what it would be like having a seriously sick child only to be told, see you in 6 months!
ReplyDeleteHere is what should be done. Americans fly to Canada for cheap drugs. Canadians fly to the US for faster doctors. Both countries pay for it to stimulate the economy's everyone is happy.
ReplyDeleteDoes it even matter, when MSFT threatens to leave the USA so they can be competitve, is there even going to by ANY money to pay for any Canadian type plan?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aaaBdVMkjPnU
Hi everyone this is Dan. I have been thinking a lot about the idea of an auction, at first I was apprehensive about the whole thing, the reason why, is probably the same as everyone else. I was worried that only one or two people would come in and try to buy everything. I have a solution to that problem. But first I want to explain why I think the auction is the best solution, and I will openly admit it is a little bit selfish on my part. I have always wished that I had one of grandpas guns. When I was 12 or 13 grandpa sold a shotgun to mark and I was given the same opportunity to buy one, but I didn't, and I have always regretted it. So when the auction was brought to my attention. I was worried that mark would come in and buy everything and it kind of pissed me off. After thinking about it for awhile I realized that this was my second and perhaps last chance to buy one of grandpa's guns. If grandpa was alive today I would go talk to him about it and I'm sure he would be gald to sell me one.
ReplyDeleteYou may say, well you can inherit one from your dad, well there are six kids in my family and I don't want to fight them all or "draw straws" for one of grandpa's guns I would much rather pay for it now and know that it belongs to me. So to ensure that no one or two people take all of the items I propose that we put a cap that no one person can buy more than two items one of which is a gun. This will ensure that the prices don't go crazy and it will also ensure the the items will go to those who will truely treasure them because they had to give something for them. I just know that if grandpa were still alive he wouldn't just give his stuff away and he wouldn't want anyone to fight over it. Who would grandpa give his belongings too? Anyone who was willing to pay for them, he would want you to earn whatever you get. So over the next 30 days or so I will be saving my pennies in the hopes that I might have enough to finally buy one of grandpa's guns.
thank you all, love Dan
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ReplyDeleteI agree with Dan.
ReplyDeleteThe last thing we need is to have a bunch of damed Californian's coming in here and buying our heirlooms. They already steal our water, pollute our air, lure our women to Hollywood and now they want our guns!! Enough is enough it has to stop here.
Seriously though if the auction happens we should have a gentleman's gentlewomen's agreement not to go overboard on biding. I don't think we need a hard number of items but if someone goes overboard and they are from California we can always lynch them. No one would blame us ;)
Jay
I agree with Jay,
ReplyDeleteCA sucks!!! What do you expect from a state that has solidly voted Liberals into office for 25 years?? Our Governor loves every liberal idea that comes down the pike. The nice thing about Liberal Ideas is that you never have to prove that they work, you only have to say that you care about something, even if you dont.
Most debt in the country, worst education (but we do spend the most per student), Highest taxes (they will go higher because people are fleeing the state that punishes hard work, but they need to pay for free health care for illegal aliens).
By the way MnS is
ReplyDeleteMark
First things first, this is almost worst than a Sunday Night @ Grandpa's. Leave it to the Thatcher Family to bring politics into it by the 24th remark. Seriously Sid, Bitchfest? Well it looks like I really started something here. SORRY. Dan has a point. I really can see both sides. I hope that we all have enough respect for each other and especially our Aunts and Uncles, who have taught us to be what we are, that we will trust thier judgement in what ever happens. On a happier note. We are going to have a baby in December. And if it's a boy his name will be Shane Orson, maybe we should just get it all...name sake and all.
ReplyDeleteLove you all, and I really hope that every family can go home with something special to remember Grandpa.
Steph
ReplyDeleteLet me be the first to say... (at least on this blog)
CONGRATS!!!
Shane Orson is a great name, the only one that I can think that is better is Mark Thatcher :)
I have had quite the giggle reading everyones comments! It took me back in time....Sunday evenings at Grandmas house; Aunts, Uncles, Parents and Grandpa all having a lively discussion while Grandma was looking for her special cookies or fresh bread to feed everyone! I just want to know when do we get to eat the cookie?
ReplyDeleteOf course I have an opinion on this matter after all I am part Thatcher, and double whammy part Hyer! I am fine with this auction as long as ALL of the siblings have an EQUAL say in the matter. I would love to attend just purely for the entertainment value!
I also have to add that my Dad said all along that the safe contained a lot of valuables. I am sure he is saying "I told you so!" (sprinkled with a few off color jokes)
Lots of love,
Leilani
Ok, so I have to make a confession, for the last two days (some of it by choice, and some not) this whole gun thing has taken up all together too much of my time. That being said, how cool is it to see everyone care so much about Grandpa and Grandma, and the memories that they have of things they left behind. Those on the outside, I know, would look at the crust of this and say, "those Thatchers cant seem to agree on anything, how sad for them." I say to those who are saying that; wouldn't it be really sad if everyone said "guns?" "what guns?" "I didnt know grandpa liked guns and cameras." Ebay that useless old junk and lets cash in, none of us were close to that old coot anyway!" That would be sad. Fortunately, there were those of us who felt close to grandpa and grandma, and so these things mean a lot.
ReplyDeleteWhich brings me to my point. Until now, I have yet to share my opinion with anyone (with the exception of one) that has not asked. Up to this point, I didn't feel like it was my place to (and it still probably isn't). And until late last night, I felt like the auction was the most unfair and misguided thing that could happen. I felt like it would be so unfair to "sell memories" to he who have the most money. Some things, (despite the opinion of some) are not for sell. But that was me just looking at it from the point of view of someone who only has one brother, who may or may not care, and so chances are pretty good that if the auction was shot down, my family would end up with one of those guns, and consequently, I would get to have one some day. I had truly never considered the point of view of a cousin who has more than one person in their family who deeply want a gun. That person (if the items where to be divided into 5 piles) would never see a gun. It would be a real tragedy to tell those who went hunting with grandpa, "sorry, you do not get a gun, so just forget about it." It would also be a real tragedy to say to someone " I know that you want something to remember grandpa by, but because you didn't go hunting with him, you of course don't deserve one." Then we have the third no, no. " It is not my fault that you are not in a financial position to buy one, so sorry, the memory shop is closed for you." That one is the most irritating to me. So what is the answer? To be honest, I don't know, and thank heavens I don't have to make the decision. I just felt like (in grand Thatcher fashion) I needed to share my long winded opinion. May those of you making the decisions really look into who wants what, and take into consideration that some really deserve to get a chance to take one of those guns home.
Gosh I feel like a democrat, complaining about everything and then not offering a solution. Shame on me.
On behalf of the family Democrats I COULD point out a few less than stellar conservative traits, but since we liberals are generally nicer, more generous people, I'll refrain. ;-)
ReplyDeleteLiberals really do donate more than anyone out there.. Even our commander and chief donated less than 1% of his hard earned community organizing dollars, from 2001-2005..
ReplyDeleteAccording to their 2005 tax return, the Bushes had taxable income of $618,694 and contributed $75,560 to charitable organizations that included the American Red Cross (Hurricane 2005 Relief), the Salvation Army (Hurricane 2005 Relief), the Salvation Army (Pakistan Earthquake Relief), Martha’s Table, the Archdiocese of New Orleans Catholic Charities, the Mississippi Food Network, and the Federal Government’s Combined Federal Campaign.
In 2006, Mr. McCain earned $358,414 in total income and donated $64,695, or 18 percent of his total income, to charity.
Those conservatives are the most heartless greedy people I know..
Paul
Liberals love to talk about how they are charitable. But they are only charitable with others money. Liberals must think... if I steel money from my neighbor (class warfare taxes), I would will give it to others. But if the money is mine.... I will not share it with those less fortunate. There are many studies out there that prove that conservatives are much "more generous" then liberals. Feel free to read and paste the link in your browser.
ReplyDeletehttp://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=1
Back to the politics. Amy I love you, no matter how you vote. I am so greatful that I was able to grow up with such great cousins. You have been a very dear friend to me. So have many of the rest of you. We are lucky.
ReplyDeleteI think it is interesting that some of you conservatives automatically think with big dollar signs when they hear the word "generous." Verrrrry interesting. I also think the manner in which you strike back proves my point. :-)
ReplyDeleteThanks Steph, I love you too. You've always been one of my best buddies. *hug*
Just so the record is straight. So like conservatives to put an ample dose of spin on their figures.
ReplyDelete1. Barack and Michele Obama Donated 5.7% of Income to Charity in 2007
2. In 2006, the Obamas gave $60,307 to charitable organizations, or about 6 percent of their $991,296 in total income that year.
3. In 2005, the Obamas reported total gifts of $77,315, or about 5 percent of their total income of nearly $1.7-million.
4. From 2000 through 2004, the Obamas’ total income was much smaller, ranging from $207,647 in 2004 to $275,123 in 2001. During this five-year period their charitable giving represented about 1 percent of their total income.
*emphasis added*
Yes, I'm sure the Obama's should donate 57% their vast fortune of $200,000ish a year to keep up with John McCain and his heiress.
http://philanthropy.com/news/updates/4418/barack-and-michele-obama-donated-57-of-income-to-charity-in-2007
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ReplyDeleteAmy just for the record, I love you to. That is what is great about the thatcher's we can all agree to disagree.. Nothing is personal (I hope).. I really feel like I have some of the best cousin's in the world... I look at other people's families and it's completely different.. At the end of the day, we are all family and that, is what matters..
ReplyDeleteCan't wait to see everyone, (with or without an auction)...
Oh Paul, you know exactly how to soften my cold, hard, liberal heart. We Thatchers gotta stick together, right? Even if we are the type to debate in heaven, we still love each other and I know I'm incredibly proud of you all. I'm just glad me and mine can be such an easy targets for you all to focus your anti-liberal ire onto. We LDS are service oriented folk after all.
ReplyDeleteAnd like on one of my flair buttons on facebook says, "I love my cousin, even if he is a Republican." ;-)
Amy, I know you noticed a trend when you posted that last post about what the Obama's have given. I know you noticed, or you would not have run the numbers starting with the most recent first. So, just incase you didn't notice, he bumped up his "offerings" at exactly the same time he was looking into the presidency. If you think that those two things had nothing to do with each other, you must be buying Koolaid at Costco at highly discounted rates. In addition, I love how you acted like $200k was a small amount of money, and that because it was so small, Barak should not have been expected to give as large of a percentage. After all, I just don't know how anyone could be expected to live on $164,000? ($200k-%18 which is what McCain paid out). You must remember that it is your party who want to tax that very income bracket at astronomical levels (anyone making more than $215 a year). It is very interesting how your party loves to force people to pay out, but then in the same breathe does not expect anyone to willingly do it. I guess conservatives have a little more faith in Americans.
ReplyDeletein 1991, President Bush, then a private citizen, reportedly had income of $179,591, and charitable contributions of $28,236. (about 15%).
George Will put it best when is said:
"In 2000, Vice President Al Gore's charitable contributions, as a percentage of his income, were below the national average: He gave 0.2 percent of his family income, one-seventh of the average for donating households. But Gore 'gave at the office.' By using public office to give other peoples' money to government programs, he was being charitable, as liberals increasingly, and conveniently, understand that word."
One last stat. Conservatives give 30% more of their money to charitable organizations, (Research found in Author Brooks book "WHO REALLY CARES") all whilst making considerably less than liberals.
These facts have been proven time and time again. It is what it is. There are some things that can be argued and won, this is not one of those things. There are too many numbers to prove that liberals love to give others money away, but hate to shell out their own.
Seems how I have been named specifically in a post, I better respond.
ReplyDeleteI like the fact that Dan, put the skunk on the table. I think he called out the fear that some may have, that someone might come in and buy all the items. I have no intention of buying more then one item at the auction. I endorse the “Dan Idea” and think limiting to two items one of them a gun is fair. It would help ensure that Items do not go for much, and put specific items into family members hands that they would forever cherish. I am sure that everyone has a personal reason that they would like to have something to remember our grandpa and grandma by. I don’t think I can articulate it any better then Dan did, but there is a gun that is connected to a story that Grandpa shared with me a couple of times, and I would love to have a chance to pass down to my children. I would walk the paper to Grandpa every day after school and talk to him about his favorite topics, The evils of big government, the constitution, personal freedom and guns. He would tell stories about the guns, and I can remember a couple that I thought were great. I don’t think it is fair to put out which gun it is as to make someone feel guilty about bidding on it against me. I also would not want to beg and barter with another family once the gun is in their family. If we limit the auction to one item per person, it seems that would solve all the potential problems of having an auction.
There were a couple of others guns that I wish were in the safe, like the over under that grandpa would shoot when we went to the trap range every Wednesday night at 4:30 in the summer and fall. I would love to even just see that gun. Does anyone know where it is at? There was also a colt 1911 pistol that would be fun to see.
From the lack of debate, and more importantly the soundness of Dan Thatcher's Idea of limiting the items that can be purchased to one item, it sounds like the Dan idea is one that everyone likes (or at least hates less then any other idea that has been presented).
ReplyDeleteLets be honest about the fact that the auction was on until the Grandkids got involved. Dad talked to the ORT 5 and no one had a big problem with it until the grandkids put in their two cents. (Aunt Aurelia probably did not get a very good explanation due to the phones breaking up), but other then that the ORT 5 were on board. So lets also help be apart of the solution instead of just being the problem.
The Dan Idea is sound.
I would also like to add one more idea. With all the silver, I think it would be cool if every grandchild could buy a silver coin for $20 (that is about the spot price of silver including minting) so that everyone that wants to have something to remember grandpa and grandma can. It also compensates the the owners of the silver (the ORT 5).
Now lets pick a date for the Auction.
How is July 5th work for everyone??
Mark
Mark,
ReplyDeleteI don't think this is up to you or to any of the rest of the grandchildren.
Also, kids have nothing to do with several of the children thinking the auction is not the best way to go. I think most of them thought they would be given time to think about what Uncle Sid suggested before it was posted as planned. In addition, I think most of them were unaware of the contents of the safe.
The lack of debate has been due to the fact that I know for my side of the family we were asked to leave it to my dad. He can decide what he wants to do.
Lots of love. Apologies to my father if I have step on his toes for posting this response.
I agree that it is not up to you or me or any of the grandchildren, BUT if that were true.. Then there would be an auction. For ANY of the grandchildren to PRETEND that they did not change the mind of their parents is disingenuous to say the least. All of the ORT 5 agreed to the auction and then some of the grandchildren started complaining about it. The ORT 5 may not have wanted to listen to their kids find fault in their decision and looked to change directions at that point.
ReplyDeleteThe interesting thing that makes me think that the Auction is still going forward, is that “Dan Plan”. That changed peoples minds on the blog that previously were against it. It looks to me like majority of the Grandkids are OK with an auction under the “Dan Plan”. Add to that the “Silver amendment” where every grandchild can purchase a piece of silver for $20, that way it make sure that anyone who would like to have memorabilia from grandpa and grandma can do so.
BTW, What does it matter what the contents in the safe are? What item in the safe made it so that an Auction is a bad idea? Everything was 100% posted on line inside of a week.
If there is a problem with the “Dan Plan” or “Silver Amendment” then point out those flaws. Otherwise, lets decide on a date.
Lots of Love,
Mark
I agree with the "Dan Plan." Really who could not be happy, but then again there will ALWAYS be people who feel like they need to complain about everything;)
ReplyDeleteMaRea
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ReplyDeleteI can guarantee my dad did not agree with a 100% auction. He talked to Uncle Sid and immediately after talked to Uncle Steve. His understanding was that the ORT 5 would split up what they could and perhaps auction the things that couldn't be split easily, or items individual members of the 5 wished to auction. Maybe that's something he talked with Uncle Steve about AFTER he talked to Uncle Sid, but that's what he told our family. That's the way it was presented to us UNTIL we got the email inviting us to the blog. So it really ISN'T isn't disingenuous. I'm pretty positive that 4 of the 5 are against the 100% auction. If that is the case, the debate is over.
ReplyDeleteOh my.. yes all the people I see complaining don't have a vote in this process. If you are voicing your opinion one way or another you are complaining.
ReplyDeleteYet again, who died and made you head of the family?
Why don't you ask DAN what Bob, Steve, and Howard said about his plan on Saturday. He talked a good fight but I don't believe any of those guys were swayed.
Also, as I said before I know that Aurelia was not sure of the auction. Her connection was bad.
I'm sorry if you feel this is unfair to you or anyone else. But there are always more than just one side to a story.
Please
ReplyDeletePresent your side then. What is wrong with the "Dan Plan"?
OK,
ReplyDeleteNow my hope that this is just some good old fashioned Thatcher debate. There should be no hard feelings… No one is pretending to speak for the family, we are just having some fun. In the end we are all family and we love each other. What is great about being a Thatcher, we are not afraid of a good debate. Hell, we even tried to debate all the way to the Supreme Court. That being said, lets debate.
Amy,
Thank you for proving my point!!
You said, “His understanding was that the ORT 5 would split up what they could and perhaps auction the things that couldn't be split easily”
This proves many points.
They consulted with each other and decided that a 100% auction is not a good idea and that they should split up the things that are easy (gold and silver) but auction off the things that are hard to value (the guns).
No one has any problem with this. We all know that what they agreed to do is split up the gold and silver and then auction off the guns. There was never any talk between them of splitting the guns up in piles or taking turns picking them. That came 100% from the blog. That is the reason that I feel very confident in putting the potential demise of the auction on the interfamily politicking.
There is no question that our side is open to making changes that are fair. We addressed the biggest concern by limiting purchases to one item “the Dan plan” and we also put out the silver amendment to make sure that everyone can go away with a bit of their own family history.
As for the meeting on Saturday, why did they have to be swayed back into going for what they already agreed they would do? Everyone, including what Amy just posted agreed that everyone was planning on an Auction. What on earth could have swayed them away from what they agreed to do??
Read all the posts and it is clear as to why they would go back on what they agreed to do.
Now let me summarize.
We all love each other. We are all having some fun and no one needs to have any hurt feelings
Mark
Mark, if everyone was in agreement that this wasn't a 100% auction, why does it say that everything in the safe would be auctioned? On top of that, many in the family didn't know specifically, what was in the safe. I was under the impression that if there were 5 guns, each of the 5 got a gun, and what ever coins there were would be split up as well.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I think it would be wonderful if people who REALLY wanted a gun could get one. Maybe those people could say that they are interested and then if the 5 are willing to wheel and deal, or auction them, then great. It would be fantastic if we could make everyone as happy as possible.
How many from each family REALLY want a gun?
As for me, I don't REALLY want a gun. There are a couple that our family likes, but I'm pretty sure we are open to chat about it. But that's me talking, not my dad.
I think it would be great if the 5 (JUST the 5) could get together in person, as soon as possible, go through the items in the safe, discuss their preferences and the desires of the their family (ie: what guns they and their family members would REALLY like), split up what can be split, then have the auction if people want at a later date (say July 5th).
But again, this is just me and my 2 cents, and it doesn't necessarily reflect the opinion of my father.
And yes, I really DO love you all. Family IS the most important thing. Just keep in mind that while our family didn't get very many of the "Thatcher" genes, we did get a healthy dose of opinionated. We seem to be in good company. ;-) I hope there aren't too many hard feelings out there.
P.S. Paul, thanks so much for the note you sent on my blog. It really meant a lot. :-)
You are right, it does say that "everything in the safe will be auctioned". It sounds like we all agree that was a misstatement. Now that is out of the way. So other then that we all agree, that they agreed to auction of everything except the silver and gold.
ReplyDeleteIt would be impossible to divide 5 guns, 5 ways in a fair way. All guns have different values. A couple of those guns are not worth more then $150 and a couple are worth over $700 or more.
If one of the family members REALLY wants a gun then the auction takes care of that.
I know that i am not going to go around and try to barter with anyone, and I am one of those people that REALLY wants a gun. It is not my place to make one of the 5 feel guilty about what had just become rightfully theirs. I will not do that.
Love ya
XOXOX
MARK